Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
This is uh Hari Nam Singh Khalsa and we're back with another episode of Warrior Saint.
And uh I think going forward I'm going to try to bring to this series some uh very
interesting people who I know in my life, who I consider to be uh very good at what they
do, visionary in what they do.
And, and hopefully in this, conversations that, uh, somehow organically it'll bring us,
uh, you know, in the direction of the objective of this, uh, of this podcast, which is to
just kind of bring awareness to the, warrior saint, ideal is taught by Guru Gobind Singh.
And sometimes the people who join me will have no background in that or not, but, I think
the, uh, guest today will have some.
So.
Let me introduce you to a good friend of mine, Ravi Prem from Chile.
And I've had the great pleasure of visiting her down there and her even organizing some
classes for me.
for those, you know, we have all kinds of people probably watching this uh podcast and
we'll have all kinds of people here.
and not just one kind of person.
But in this particular case, uh me and Ravi Prem share one thing.
We kind of uh been uh kind of brought up in the same uh spiritual family, which is called
3HO, which is kind of a global thing.
uh I myself about 50 years ago started with this and her, how many years maybe?
How many years have you been involved with this?
work actively in leadership or you mean in my personal life as well?
just, you know, since the first 20, wow, 25 years, that's a long time.
So her 25 years, me about 50.
And, know, we've had different experience of this, me in the United States, she's in
Chile.
And then I think and we've both been in the leadership of this for a while.
Again, me kind of I'd say maybe a little more politically, although it's all political.
You've been on the board of directors of this and what are you doing these days?
So I'm working with the KRI team, the Kundalini Research Institute team, and I'm there the
outreach manager, which is very...
why don't you, let's assume that there are people listening to this who have no idea what
KRI is, no idea what outreach means.
just like for the person just popping up on this, maybe you could explain a little in
detail.
Yeah, well the Kundalini Research Institute is kind of the one of the organizations that
Yogi Bhajan created himself, you know, to preserve his legacy and his teachings in the
Kundalini Yoga taught by Yogi Bhajan and that was back in the 1972.
So it has a long story, you know, a long story and in that long story I am super new, you
know,
I have been involved there in the last five years.
And at the beginning in a very humble position, you know, working with trainers,
organizing some meetings, online meetings during the time of the pandemic.
And then the person who was serving, working in the outreach area worldwide for decades,
Harit Harankaur, she retired.
And when she retired,
she pointed me and we started working together before she left and now um I'm keeping up
with that.
Meaning I'm getting in touch with different teacher trainers that serve around the globe,
Kundalini Yoga teachers who are also training people who want to become Kundalini Yoga
teachers.
We call those trainers.
um So I am very involved with them.
uh That is one part of my life.
I also serve here in Chile in the local community, in the national associations of
Kundalini Yoga teachers.
And I have been doing that also for the last five years.
And before that, I used to serve in the festivals that here um happened.
and I'm also serving at EPS.
I don't know if I told you that, but in the Ethics and Professional Standards uh Office of
the Services Inside Court.
I'm not sure if I told you that before.
No, this is the first step.
Yes, so I'm serving there.
So working in Kier Rai and also working in psychotherapy things, you know, that's my
profession and one of my passions and serving locally and globally as well.
Yeah.
I think that you probably have interesting insights about things that a lot of people in
the audience would be interested in, not just this particular group, which could be, you
you've heard this, that in this group and in groups like this, people start like living
inside of a bubble.
they kind of...
forget that they represent maybe one one thousandth of one percent of the population of
the earth and they think they're bigger than they are and they're not.
And so, know, whenever I talk to people, have to understand that if they're not inside the
group, then they may not know a lot.
But I have kind of more interest on
You know, having, it seems to me that, I mean, if I were to explain to a layman, somebody
who didn't know anything, what your function is the last couple of years, is that, and
maybe I'm incorrect, but if, generally it seems like you're a community builder within a
particular yogic community, you're like, globally, you're a community builder.
And then also, as you said at the end, you're also involved in the kind of the office of
ethics that somehow that, you know, the standards that people do practice and teach uh
this form of yoga that uh there's some accountability.
Is that more or less fair way of?
Yeah, like if we had to just, you know, talk to somebody on the street, you know, it
sounds like you're a community builder globally of a particular type of yoga practice.
And then also you're part of the kind of apparatus to make sure that the people involved
with it are acting appropriately and interfacing with the people they're serving in an
appropriate manner, right?
Yes, that's super fair to say.
Yeah, okay, good, Yeah, because that's kind of a good launching point where, know,
hopefully, you know, and I, you know, like yourself, I've got 50 years of experience with
this myself interacting.
So I think we both have interacted with this, generally this group we're talking about,
but I think in different ways over last 50 years.
Yes.
And even you mentioned about this stuff left behind by Yogi Bhajan.
I'm not sure if you ever did you ever meet him personally?
Yeah, and I'm sorry.
I started practicing, I used to live in the of Chile.
So I started practicing Kundalini Yoga with a teacher in a small group, small city, small
house that was very, very tiny.
And actually, I was not even aware.
He used to talk about the teacher.
and share some stories about the teacher that some I think he came to Chile maybe once or
twice but no I didn't I didn't meet him and then when I became a teacher myself you know
he was already already gone so yeah I didn't meet him personally
Yeah, and I was like one of the, guess, earlier pioneers in this.
don't have many contemporaries still alive here.
We still are involved with this.
And I knew this, I knew him pretty well.
knew his family pretty well.
So, you know, we different experiences with all of this.
I, you know, but you're...
you're probably even more connected with the global community of people who practice this
than I am.
I think you see and hear things that I probably don't even hear and see.
So what do you think is going on these days?
Not just in this group, you know, but you know, because the world's crazy.
The world's crazy, right?
So what's going on?
Well, where to begin with that conversation, Hadynam?
You know, I think maybe I told you this at some point in any personal one-to-one
conversation, but every time that I start a new year, um my birthday is in January.
So every time we are around that month, I...
really go to have inner conversations.
So one of the inner conversations that I'm having now, I turn 47 and I am in this age and
time and space where many, many things have, you know, changed super radically in a very
short amount of time.
So when I, you know, was
I grew up in the countryside, I didn't have a phone, I didn't even have a TV, you know?
And then when I had one TV, it has like two channels because other ones I wouldn't just
see.
um And then, know, cell phone, I didn't have and internet came when I was, you know,
already a teenager, maybe closer to my 18th.
And from there to now, know, just so many things, know, so many things are super radically
different, even for me, you know, even for me talking to you now through this machine, you
know, you in Mexico, me in Chile, um things that I just I wouldn't even think about
before.
So, um yeah, I'm
I'm curiously witnessing that, you know, in the outer space and also in this stage of my
personal life where I'm not longer too young.
So many places where I go, people call me man, you know, which is fairly new, I would say.
um
Realizing that the places that I used to go I used to like to even buy clothes.
I don't like them anymore You know, it's like I just don't like them anymore.
So And also, know people that I used to enjoy having conversations on or hanging out also
realizing that It's just Not my place anymore to be there
your position as being a community builder has been maybe you're on your way out of doing
that.
I'm not sure, but, you know, I think you've been a community builder in this global
community of people that I guess have in common practicing a certain type of yoga.
And, I guess my general interest
is always, oh you know, what's going on and where is the world heading?
And kind of trying to understand these groups, you know, why they exist, if they're
accomplishing their objectives, what it all means for the future, not just of this group,
but the society.
And so, you know, I'm just...
You you have a unique role in interacting with so many people.
I'm just, you know, I'm just curious about a bigger view of all these things.
you
Okay, so one thing that I witnessed and that it's interesting for me is that, you know,
this conception that we usually talk about our community or 3-H community, Kundalini Yoga
community.
And then what I do experience is that inside that community there are so many different
communities and so many with
with their particularities, you know?
um Let's say with some core...
anchor, I would call it like that, some core anchor or anchors, but with so many
differences and diversity.
And you know, I can realize within my own process that maybe when I came in, I was very
naive regarding some things, you know, and was hoping or expecting or, I don't know, maybe
aware of
one aspect of our community, our communities, and then I'm realizing that we are very much
human beings.
That I would say.
So...
very much alike to humankind much more than we actually acknowledge and think of
ourselves, I would say.
When you say we, are you talking about the people in this group?
Yes.
So do you think there's like some like magical thinking, like collectively that just like
membership into the group, being part of the group uh comes with some kind of specialness
that you're special or better if you're in the group.
Yeah, for some people I would say that that is the case, not for everybody.
You know, there is not for everybody.
And again, it's a super diverse community.
And something that, for example, for me is super inspiring in this community in
particular, is that I find places where deep conversations can happen.
And many times deep listening can happen and honest conversations can happen.
And also in some other times, you know, a lot of ego can happen.
And I don't think we are actually much aware of that.
know, some people are, some more than others, some more humble, some not.
And I can realize within myself that many times I get amazed by that.
And what I can see of me, you know, it's like maybe the expectation or the naivety that,
you know, this, this, in this community, we don't have that, but actually we do have We do
have that.
And uh for sure, I, not only, you know, there outside, also I, you know, that's also in
first person, I would say.
uh And that is super interesting for me to witness, super interesting for me to deal with,
to integrate, and not only, again, not only outside out there, but you know,
how that speaks to me in my personal life, in my inner development.
And this, what I'm naming here, this is not only the way that I interact with this
community, our community, but also in my other professional areas.
I can acknowledge the same.
Every time that I'm having a one-to-one conversation, many times I feel so amazed.
by the opportunity that life has given me to be seated here witnessing this conversation
with the other person.
And what I do for me that sometimes I don't need to go through so many different
challenges and I can learn from the words and life of the other people.
um
It's just beautiful and amazing at the same time.
And sometimes it's scary.
You know, I get to...
have close friendships with people who are in leadership of many spiritual and religious
groups.
It's a fun part of my life.
get to, I mean, I know a lot of ministers and rabbis and people heading yoga school, you
know, so very interesting.
And the last couple of years is just, you know, it's like...
If you feel like something going on in your own world, it's not, in my experience, it's
not isolated, it's going on in all the groups.
Because like what you said, it's about people in the end, it's about human beings.
so it's no, people think, I think sometimes in their group, it's there.
I always hear this, by the way, when I travel, you don't understand because it's different
here in.
in China, it's different in Chile, you know, it's a, you know, you don't know it's a
really, no, it's not.
They don't know, they don't know, or they're not paying attention, but actually it's very
much the same in all these groups.
And I know it because I get invited in and I hear they're dealing with the same, the
leaders of those groups are dealing with the same challenges I'm dealing with, dealing
with, it's human beings you're dealing with.
And one, I think one of the things that,
And you probably have seen.
But again, I don't think it's just with this group, and I think it's.
It's a subject that.
A lot of people don't want to deal with, and again, not just this group, it's all these
groups From what I can see, what's going on in the world right now in all of these uh
intentional groups, whether you call them.
religions or spiritual groups or whatever groups is that in most of these groups there is
not necessarily an agreement among all of its members about actually what the objective of
the group is.
Why they even, and when I say the objective is like why does this group actually exist and
what
Is it that if somebody were aligning themselves with the group, is there a uh common
agreement about, you know, when you use the word like we, what does we actually mean?
all these groups are splintering off because there is some acknowledgement that
actually people are not there for the same reasons and they don't even have the same
belief of what it is they're really a part of.
And eventually that kind of comes out and it gets very divisive, but it would be
understandable that it's divisive.
And it's something I mean, I don't know about in your job, but it's something.
that I deal with just being on the board of directors of this particular organization that
we're talking about is that I think at this point you'd have trouble getting more than two
or three people to agree on that it's actually has the same objective.
so it's tough keeping it together.
And then there's the question whether it's even worth keeping together.
Hmm.
um people have different views of what it means or that it means nothing.
And so to me, this is a big challenge.
And I hear the same thing from leadership of other faiths as well.
And so I don't think this is just this particular group.
I think people join into something, they get into it and...
And then they're into it and they can see that, wait, wait, wait a minute.
Like, uh we're not even on the same page here.
And like, what's the purpose of this group?
What's, what's the ultimate purpose of this group?
And in the case of this particular organization that we've been part of, but again, I
think it's all these organizations.
And I got to the point that I was on very high positions of leadership in the organization
is that I.
increasingly was of the opinion of what I was seeing is that actually the purpose of the
organization was not actually clearly stated either by the people who were at the top of
the leadership of it or even down the line down to the, know, constituency of it is that
people were enjoying what they were doing, but almost nobody either was able to or willing
to articulate what its objective was.
And I think that that made it very difficult for this to be sustainable without there
being a clearly articulated purpose for existence other than it just feels good.
And I've heard this from leadership of other faiths.
I don't think it's just in this group either.
I just think that these are the hard questions people have to address in my opinion.
And I think that a lot of people are not wanting to address those things in this group and
in other groups because um they're afraid.
They're afraid that if you actually speak openly about it, that the whole thing is, you
know, it's like if you're in a marriage and you're speaking openly about the challenges of
it, you don't want to talk about it because the whole thing will just blow up,
Sometimes I find that we people in leadership in different um realms in life, not only in
this community in general, I would say.
um Sometimes we forget, you know, why are we here and what kind of...
that we are not here to serve ourselves.
we are not here to serve ourselves, but you know, something else.
So if you are a president in a nation, then you are not there to serve yourself and to
receive whatever amount of money, you know, you are there because of a reason.
And part of that reason in my understanding has to do with service.
um
And I don't see that kind of dialogues and questions so often happening.
Sometimes politics gets in, and again, I'm talking in general, so sometimes politics get
in, sometimes power issues, sometimes ego.
And I'm not blaming, I'm not blaming about it.
what I'm saying and again, I'm not saying that, you know, oh I'm not there, you know, or I
have not been there personally because I have.
um And I find very, very valuable, you know, the experiences in which I personally have
had the chance to remind myself or collectively, you know, the leadership group, we have
had the chance to talk about that and you know, like, let's remember that I'm not here to
serve myself.
This is not about me, Ravi Prem.
This is about a flow that is going through me and that was before I am and will continue
to be after I leave.
So in this time and space that I have, then what can I offer to that something?
For me, that kind of reflections are very interesting.
You know, this point that you brought up reminded me of something.
And it gets back to this constant remembrance I have of these groups not having a clear
understanding of their purpose.
But it gets back to what you were saying, and it may even have a difference in what our
roles are.
or like you have a certain role.
So again, we can be talking about any group.
So I'm not here to talk about 3HO, but we can talk about any group.
But it's interesting, like, it seems to me that your role in that structure is as being a
community builder.
And so being a community builder, it's not like I'm not a community builder either, but I
think that it's fair to say that you're more of a community builder than I am.
and you're a community builder, that's where your job is.
And as a community builder, if you were acting out of service and not out of
self-interest, I would assume that your priority is serving that community, is to serve
the community, because that's actually your role, as I understand it.
to be and I do appreciate that.
I'm not sure that other people appreciate like the role that I would be in.
I don't consider the needs and wants of the community to be a priority to me.
ah And it's not that they're not important.
It's that
That's not my job.
I think this will give you some insight how tricky my job is.
And again, it could be in any organization.
So to me, you have a very important job, and if you were to be doing your job at its best,
the mission of your job is to serve the needs of the community.
But I don't think that's the,
My job description, I think my job description being on the board of directors is my
loyalty is to the mission itself, not to the people it serves.
And people would go, well, that's crazy.
And they're the same thing.
And I'm going, not exactly the same thing.
It's kind of my job is that if I am protecting the integrity of the mission itself and I'm
basically
part of the effort to keep the valuable resources of it and what has to offer humanity and
keeping that protected, then that is in the interest of the community it serves.
But it's not my job to directly provide that service.
That's more your job.
And so my job is to
be part of the effort to give the space and resources and support for other people to do
their particular job, which in your case, I think you're really doing a good job.
And then some people get really angry at people like me because they're questioning my
character sometimes.
But actually, it's not like I don't care.
It's just that I got my job to do.
My job is to protect impersonally.
Hmm.
with the confidence that the mission will take care of the people and then we have the
right people in place like yourself to take care of the people.
But I think this gets down to what I think the real challenge is right now, not just in
this group or with me, or it's more like what's happening in the world of religion and
spirituality and everything as you said, is that how can the leadership
of a spiritual or religious organization, okay, serve the mission, right?
If that's their priority.
people could disagree with me, that's fine.
But I honestly feel that the, by far the biggest responsibility of the head leadership of
any spiritual group is to protect the integrity and sacredness of the source of those
teachings.
Okay, okay, that's great, except what happens when there actually is not clarity or
agreement about actually what the mission of the oh organization or the faith is.
that's a big problem because you're basically wanting people in positions of authority
that are really ready, willing, and able to sacrifice their own lives if necessary for the
protection of the mission.
But if you cannot actually state what the mission is, how can they do that?
And to me, this is actually the root cause of all the divisions.
It's kind of like there's many divisions and there's reasons for divisions and I get it,
but there's a mother of all divisions.
And the mother of all divisions is a lack of agreement or willingness if need be.
to state what is the mission of the group.
What is their reason for being?
If they can't or won't do that, then it's impossible to have any unity going forward.
And so I've talked to leaders of other groups and they talk of the same thing and it's
frustrating.
And it's gonna be interesting.
I think a lot about the future about all of this because I,
I don't think these groups that are either unable or unwilling to state their reason for
being in a very clear way, I don't think it's sustainable.
Like, so people love the group, dedicating their life to its work, why work?
I mean, and people are not wanting to acknowledge that.
But I think they're not willing to acknowledge it because they don't want to take the
personal responsibility of actually even being able to explain their own participation in.
Like for what purpose?
So it's great, you're doing yoga, you're doing meditation, you got like for a while, for
what purpose?
This is a big issue right now, not just this group.
Even in these yoga groups, you have more experience than I do, but I observe things around
me and I teach classes.
I've had thousands of people in my classes.
I watch what's going on.
And sometimes even though I'm sharing this stuff with people,
Sometimes I'm like scratching my head underneath my turban, is.
For what purpose?
So people are doing yoga, people are doing meditation, that's great, terrific.
But why?
I mean, what is their reason for doing it?
And I think as we know, these groups to me are something of a mixture of intention and
escapism.
Hmm.
we have this group three HO, we have other groups, but to me, mother of all questions is
why does it exist?
What is the ultimate purpose for it existing?
And without being overly philosophical, I think that has been stated, but it's been lost.
I've really come to see how much the outside world, the secular world and what's going on
in the secular world affects the thinking even within the group.
think people underestimate that.
And I think that, like for instance, you what's going on in the world politically, as you
said, I mean, we're all very concerned about this and wars and inequality and unfairness
and
civil injustice and poverty and I mean we'd go down the list and it's and now the whole
digital thing and artificial I mean you know and I think people understandably are freaked
out by what's going on around them and they're not aware of how much actually affects them
and including how they interact with their own religion or spiritual group
So how do you feel?
Do you feel like you've seen some of that?
Yes, yes, then I agree with you.
oh
I agree with you and...
So one of the things, for example, in my understanding regarding yoga and the practice of
yoga and even the experience in life um has to do eventually with liberation.
And um I have also, I don't know if you were talking about this or not before, but that
was kind of my feeling when I was listening to you.
That when I say that, when I named these to the students, they would
just open the eyes and you know, what are you talking about?
That could be kind of the feeling, you know?
um So it's interesting in that sense.
And personally, I don't define myself as um a religious person, I would say.
But I do define myself as a very spiritual and faithful woman, if that's a word.
And so I have been, you know, for the last year participating in reading groups of the
Siddhi Guru Ransay.
So we read it over and over, you know, once and then we start again and then we start
again.
Yeah, when you say Siri Guru Grantham, again, lot of people won't know that's the holy
book of this.
lack of a better word, that's a holy book of the Sikh faith.
Yes, for me, and you know my approach is not philosophical or is not religious, but I can
acknowledge the wisdom and the truth that I find there, you know.
even though with the transliteration and the translation issues, because that's a whole
thing, but for me, and I'm naming that because my experience when approaching that and
reading the words of Guru Nanak, for example, which I feel super, personally when I'm
looking for guidance and inspiration, that would be someone that I would look at.
you know, and his words and his actions and, you know, meditations that has to do with the
Mool Mantra or the Yabgi Sahib.
That would be for me.
And perhaps for you or for someone who can be hearing this, you know, this can sound
crazy, but I am very aware of what I have experienced and learned through that, you know,
and...
that is very anchored within me.
I know what I'm talking about.
I know.
I know that.
um
And I lost track uh why I started to talk about this.
But I think it has to do, you know, finally with the purpose of why we are doing certain
things.
um
Yeah, and when I was naming before, you know, like the service aspect of the leadership
and I was talking to you about how inspiring it is for me when, you know, we ask the
question, you know, why are we doing this?
And remember that this is not about you, but something else.
I think I'm continuing to talk about that, you know, like then.
at least for me, for myself in life, it would be something like attuning from time to
time, you know.
with again with the time and space that I am.
at
So you're representing this.
If somebody on the street were to bump into you or bump into you in the subway, right, in
the metro.
Mm-hmm.
and knew that you were in leadership in some way of this group.
And they asked you, what is the purpose of this group?
Would you have an answer for them?
I think there are different layers of that.
ah
not interested.
getting off the, they want to know in 10 seconds.
I don't know what to say.
My first reply and the one that I would say is how I presented at the beginning regarding
KRI at least.
This is the organization that Dugui Bajan created to preserve his teachings.
And that is done in a particular way, the lectures that he gave and the library of
teachings that it's a library where we can find.
his lectures, videos and yoga practices and meditations.
for what purpose?
I mean, so like if everybody would actually do, like practice what he is sharing, I would
assume that's the, I mean, I'm talking like as if I didn't know anything.
It's like from what you're sharing, I'm assuming that that's for a purpose.
Not just to do it, just go get this guy gave it, okay, we're gonna do this stuff.
Okay, but that's not end game.
What's the, like, so what's the end game?
And my understanding is liberation, meaning...
um
going back, sort of going back to that fusion with God and God energy, the creator,
whatever name you want to give to that uh force, that it's, you know, sparks in all of us.
oh Like when we say that we are drops of the ocean without noticing that we are also part
of the ocean at the same time.
why do you think that people have so much issues with just answering those kind of
questions directly?
Like saying, like what's the objective of all of this?
It's to attain liberation.
Why do people have, why do you think people have so much difficulty just kind of
confidently and humorously or whatever, just getting right to the point instead of this
like,
The first time I saw that was when I think my first week was this.
I was 24 years old.
And I was with somebody who practiced this.
And we were at a diner in New York.
And we were dressed differently.
And somebody very innocently came up to this woman and just said, why are you dressed the
way that you are dressed?
And she went on for like 20 minutes.
And the woman who asked the question looked very confused and upset.
She's standing there for 20 minutes.
She just went, and she looks to me like, oh.
Thank
And I said, yeah, well, she's a Sikh.
It's a religion from India.
And the woman was so relieved and she's, thank you, I understand.
Hmm.
Why is there so many people in this group who just seem like they're hesitant to just take
a stand for who they are?
And it's really not sustainable, I don't think.
know, it's like there's very few people who will just say, is what we're doing.
And that's what people want, that they just want the truth.
for instance, you said something.
You said that you didn't consider yourself a religious person.
I don't even know what that means.
So in my mind...
I'm not being critical of you, this happens all the time.
This even happens to people I know on the board of directors of the organization, is
they're saying that they're really not a religious person.
Yeah, but I don't even know what they're talking about.
Like, so I'd have to actually kind of get into their heads to even understand what...
They even mean by that because they use in a word, but maybe I'm using the word
differently.
So now it's about words and people being comfortable or uncomfortable with using the word
God or religion or whatever, instead of just enjoying their life
All I can feel is on some level, they're uncomfortable with themselves.
That they're trying to prove something to somebody, but the other person actually doesn't
care.
You know, it's kind of like, they just want to know what you're doing.
They don't want, you don't have to defend, don't have prove anything.
one thing that's happening right now, and I'm interested in your input on this.
this very strong global wave of what I would call authoritarianism.
it's disturbing to watch the news these days, obviously, what's going on everywhere, you
know?
And it's...
This is probably how the felt in the 30s before Second World War.
It's scary.
And uh it's scary about who's running the show here around the world and there's little
you can do about it.
And I think that concerns a lot of people and it concerns the hearts of a lot of good
people.
And so basically I am very much opposed to authoritarianism in secular society.
But all these religions or spiritual paths, so what if you want to call them, are by
definition authoritarian.
Because even if
you're talking about the people who study Kundalini Yoga.
The authority is the teachings of Yogi Bhajan.
If you're a Sikh, The Siri Guru Granth Sahib is the authority.
It's not like a philosophical debate.
That is the authority.
Okay?
If you're a Christian, I would assume the Bible is your authority.
all these things by definition are presenting an absolute truth.
They're not relative truths.
Whether it's Guru Nanak or Christ or whatever, I think you'd agree that they're presenting
an absolute truth
That's what it is.
And so to me, for better or worse, these religions or spiritual paths, whatever you want
to call it, are not sustainable if people are doubting
the authority from where they're coming from.
And so in my own mind, a very good balance of this is basically recognizing the
authoritarian nature of religion itself, okay?
And it being able to live at the same time, paradoxically, with a very uh democratic
and open secular society but I'm seeing people's reaction to what's going on in the world
politically and otherwise.
is actually affecting the way they look at their own faith.
and they start questioning it because now they're reacting to anything they see as being
authoritarian.
Where is the line between people questioning, which is generally a healthy thing I would
say, and there being a place in their life where there's something that they don't
question, and they can live in harmony with each other?
So that's why I'm kind of interested in your thoughts about all of this, you know, like
this kind of interaction, what's going on around us and what's going on in our own little
bubble here.
Yeah, I was hearing you with the authoritarian thing that you were talking about in
democracy.
You know what uh comes for me when I hear that is kind of the experience of that authority
that you are naming, you know, when you mention a figure like Buddha or Christ or, know,
Guru Nanak, for example.
And again, you know, I...
My knowledge, my rational knowledge is not that I have been studying that or it's very
basic, knowledge about that.
there is a quality in that authority that is not authoritarian, that I would say.
And that is, in my experience, is different from human authority, or yeah, from human
authority, or what we are witnessing, as you were naming at the beginning with the
politics, for example.
So for me, there is a nature in itself that is really different.
some and I understand what you're naming about authority and at the same time you know it
resonates in again from my experience in a way that it's there is just no question in your
mind because I don't know how to even call that but because there is you know just the
straight verticality and you just want to stay under that you know and no question about
And for me, that is different than having whatever human claiming something that doesn't
have the same vibe.
Yeah, I actually totally agree with what you're saying and I think what you're saying, if
I'm listening to you, which I am.
is that you're basically pointing out the difference that even if you're reading from Guru
Nanak, let's say, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and that anything in the Sri Guru Granth
Sahib is as authoritarian as authoritarian could be, but you're like contrasting it with
the things we're seeing in the world around us.
you know, politics and business, you know, people basically who are forcing their
authoritarian, on others, okay, for their own personal benefit.
All right, and then there's this other thing that's a very pure authority, but you're
acknowledging that that's not coming from a place of imposition.
Yes.
or even from personal interest.
To the contrary, it's free of personal interest.
Okay?
And so I agree with you, and it kind of gets back to what I was saying before about what
I'm seeing inside of this group and other religious and spiritual groups, and this
misunderstanding, I think, is that...
And you're the one who's pointed this out is that it's not about authoritarianism.
It's about where people are coming from.
Hmm.
So if a message, let's say from Siri Guru Granth Sahib, is coming from a very pure and
selfless place, and it's technically very authoritarian, by the meaning of the word
authoritarian, it is an authority, it's a sole authority, that's what it is, but,
It's not being imposed, it's not being forced, and there's no personal interest involved.
That is absolutely benign, even though it's authoritarian, it's benign.
It's totally harmless.
In fact, not only is it harmless, but it's very, very healing and very, very elevating and
very transformational.
Then you have this other expression of authoritarianism that is basically coming from a
very
self-interest in place and when it does it, it imposes harm.
It imposes harm and destruction.
So it's not to me the authoritarianism, it's where the people are coming from and how it's
being used.
And so again, I think one of the challenges that's facing these religions right now,
especially in the West, is
two things and I think that one is, and it's a scary thing, is that these religious
groups, because the religious teachings are authoritarian, they're basically kind of
perverting that into giving them basically license to be authoritarian themselves in a
very uh self-centered way.
So it's like they're empowered by the pure authority of their religion and now they're
basically gonna twist the thing upside down and they're going to impose this forcibly for
their own personal gain.
And so they're totally perverting the message, the authoritarian message that came from a
very selfless place.
They're going to basically stand it on its head.
and give them the right to impose that on other people for their own benefit.
And then to me, the other challenge that I think is more in some other groups like the
we've been in is that people in that group are so aware and sensitive to the damage done
by those kind of authoritarians that they don't want anything to do with
anything that seems like that, even if it's coming from a pure place.
So to me, the leadership of these paths and these religions have to somehow inspire the
people to be able to tell the difference and to be able to surrender themselves to a pure
authoritarian source.
is completely void of self-interest, is completely coming from a pure place.
And at the same time, those people, especially in the Khalsa path, ah because we see
ourselves as being warriors and defenders of the weak and the helpless and that kind of
thing, that's in our DNA.
And so the same people who are giving themselves over to
authority that's coming from the highest, most pure place and actually be willing to
oppose and defend against
the forces of authoritarianism that are being imposed out of self-interest and
destruction.
But to me, people can't get so freaked out that they lose their neutrality and seeing the
difference.
It's all this or it's all that, but maybe not.
What do you think about
I wouldn't put everyone in the same box, let's say.
I get what you're saying and I agree.
And I think that's the case for many human beings, for sure.
I don't think it's the case for everybody, but I get what you're And yes.
You've dedicated a lot of your life to
really uplifting others.
And it sounds like the last couple of years has been a uh real educational experience for
you.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I feel super blessed about it, know, not only because of this position, but you know,
the service and other areas in my life.
it's just been wonderful talking with you for the last hour or so and we'll have to do
this uh another time.
God bless you and see you soon
